Regular v. Stiff Driver
rectil...@yahoo.com
little too high and with too much spin. Swing speed is 106. Am I giving
up significant yardage by not using a stiff shaft? I would like to try
a stiff but I can't find anywhere that will let you take one out even
to a range to try it.
Howard Brazee
On 25-Feb-2005, rectil...@yahoo.com wrote:
Everything I've read indicates that flexible shafts give more distance than
stiff shafts. The Pros who prefer stiff staffs, do so for control issues.
Joe Mazur
a stiffer shaft. Stiffer shaft would typically give you more accuracy.
<rectil...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1109345232.0...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
JoePete
I would consider possible swing related issues first. On the surface 106
mph is a decent pass at the ball, but it may warrant closer examination.
I would be concerned that maybe you are scooping at the ball, casting
or some other early release fault -- explaining the high trajectory.
Depending on how that swing speed was measured, your speed at impact may
be a little lower than you think.
Keep in mind that shaft manufacturers use different criteria in
determining their ratings. Hence, for comparison, you really have to
stick within the same manufacturer and often the same model.
In general shaft flex (whether more or less) is not going to
significantly impact distance. It's more a matter of feel, a slight gain
in consistency and just preference for how you want to shape your shots.
--
JoePete
rectil...@yahoo.com
more roll? I think that is what I'm looking for...
David Geesaman
It won't help you. Based on my experience with the same problem (drives
were too high) it was a swing flaw that had the loft of the club in the
wrong position. The loft of the driver is fine tuning, and the shaft flex
(kickpoint actually) is very, very fine tuning.
Shaft flex IMO is mostly tied to tempo. Because harder hitters tend to
have faster tempo, they tend to like stiffer shafts.
I'll bet the solution lies in a swing adjustment. You'll not only get
the ball flight down, you'll get better distance. Changing balls may help
some too to get the spin at optimum.
Dave
Bill H.
the ball in your stance. If you have significant backspin you could be
hitting down on the ball, which is great for irons, but not so great
for drives.
As for trying different clubs, you may just have to look around. I
only got to hit my Taylor Made 580XD into a net at the golf shop, but
that was enough for me to decide that I liked the way it handled. It
has a very stiff shaft, by the way, which works well for me.
Some people think that a shaft should be as flexible as possible. Some
like it stiff. Some say it depends on your swing speed. I think it
just depends on what you like and that there isn't any real magic
bullet either way. First see if you're doing anything wrong with your
swing, since that's cheaper to fix (and sometimes easier) than going
out and buying a new club.
larry
The shaft flex characteistics are NOT the reason you hit it high. I
can hit a Whippy driver low or high, depending on how much I work to
keep the clubhead low and accelerating toward the target after impact.
The whippy driver can be bent double. It has NO stiffness. But with
that or any regular driver, when I "quit" at impact like most
handicappers do, the ball will sail high like a 9-iron. Good players
lead the clubhead with the handle-- their hands are out in front of
the clubhead and they PULL the whole club through with their leading
hand. They keep it accelerating through impact and beyond.
look at the impact photos in
ftp://centriswing.com:ugci...@ftp-dom.earthlink.net/golffiles/
The shaft is outside the front leg and the hands are ahead of the
clubhead. If you let the clubhead pass the handle through impact, you
have decelerated--and no telling where the ball is going. PULL it
through with your leading hand--the last 3 little fingers.
Larry
JoePete
> I agree...but won't a stiffer shaft give me a lower launch angle and
> more roll? I think that is what I'm looking for...
There are a lot of givens to this conclusion, but yes, a properly
executed swing with a stiffer likely will give you a lower launch angle.
Spin probably will be about the same; any additional roll will be more a
function of trajectory. By the same token, your apparent excess spin,
may just be a function of too high a trajectory. In other words, fix the
trajectory and you might also get the roll you want.
However, like I said, the above has certain givens. Someone with a
particular flaw, or who picks up a particular flaw due to the difference
in feel of a stiff shaft, might actually see very different results.
The key piece of the puzzle is realizing that at impact the clubhead is
actually slightly ahead of the hands. Think of the shaft making a "C."
With a driver this has the effect of adding loft. This is a pretty good
thing considering that optimum launch angle for distance is usually
around 15 - 18 degrees or so (there are variables like a ball's spin
rate). This is what leads me to think there is something more than just
club design going on. With a 9.5 degree driver, and let's say a soft
shaft, to get too high of a trajectory could be indicative of something
swing related.
The other thing to keep in mind/look for is that even with too soft of a
shaft, you should get some flush. The clubhead is always going to be a
little too ahead or even a little too behind. With too soft shaft, the
extremes are further apart. With a stiffer shaft, that range narrows. By
the same token, if you go too stiff, you guarantee that you will always
be missing (likely low and right). I think of it as more a consistency
or margin of error issue rather than absolute. The trick is finding a
shaft that gives your swing the best margin of error.
--
JoePete
larry
wrote:
>You get more mechanical advantage (e.g. distance) from a whippier shaft not
>a stiffer shaft. Stiffer shaft would typically give you more accuracy.
You get more distance from a flexible shaft because the shaft is
lighter, thus more weight can be concentrated in the clubhead. You
get less distance with stiff shafts because the shaft is heavier.
Notice that no pros use stiff steel shafts in their driver. Soon they
won't in their irons either.
Just as we learn from the Whippy training devices--and by watching
good players swing a clubhead connected by a rope or chain and hit the
ball almost as well as with a regular club-- the shaft flex
characteristics have NOTHING to do with either distance or control.
In a good golf swing the player PULLS the clubhead through the ball
primarily with his leading hand. If he does not exert hand
interference, turning or pushing the shaft with hand action, the ball
will go in the direction of the clubhead through the impact area.
Line up straight, the ball goes straight.
Larry
larry
>I agree...but won't a stiffer shaft give me a lower launch angle and
>more roll? I think that is what I'm looking for...
To launch the ball lower, simply swing the clubhead through the ball
and keep it down after impact. Keep you hands low--which will keep
your forward shoulder low. You can hit a line drive "knuckle ball" if
you exaggerate that. You can do it with either a stiff steel shaft of
a whippy shaft, so the launch angle is not about the shaft flex
characteristics-- since we PULL the clubhead through the ball, we
don't push it and we don't leverage it from the handle like a garden
hoe.
I suggest you work with an impact bag--learn to make the handle lead
the clubhead through every shot-- exaggerate it until you learn that
is the secret to crisp contact, long divots, and avoiding
deceleration.
larry
Howard Brazee
On 25-Feb-2005, larry <la...@delmardata.com> wrote:
> Notice that no pros use stiff steel shafts in their driver. Soon they
> won't in their irons either.
Actually, I hadn't noticed. Do you have a site that makes this noticeable?
I know that Tiger's most recent driver had a steel shaft, but his current one is
graphite.
JoePete
> Isn't there another shaft parameter to consider here, namely torque? It's
> my understanding that a shaft with too much torque will launch the ball
> higher and with a parabolic flight rather than the high, flat trajectory
> that results in maximum distance. Maybe the issue is a combination of
> regular flex and high torque.
Years ago excess torque was a knock against graphite shafts, but my
understanding is shaft manufacturers have improved things to minimize
the twisting of the clubhead like this. Someone with a lot more current
clubmaking experience I hope will weigh in on that.
But that said, as the clubhead flexes forward it will turn closed. As it
lags, it will remain open. Hence the high draw or pull a common
indicator of being too soft and the low push an indicator of being too
stiff -- again these are not absolutes.
There are also other variations including high and low kick points.
That's one of the reasons why I don't like the idea of fitting a shaft
to one club but rather fitting a well matched set of shafts to an entire
set of clubs. I'm more about consistency than the characteristics of one
club. My clubmaking experience was mostly when I worked at a club 15
years or so ago. Things were a lot easier.
--
JoePete
Alan Baker
larry <la...@delmardata.com> wrote:
To which photo are you referring?
--
Alan Baker
Vancouver, British Columbia
"If you raise the ceiling 4 feet, move the fireplace from that wall
to that wall, you'll still only get the full stereophonic effect
if you sit in the bottom of that cupboard."
Howard Brazee
On 25-Feb-2005, JoePete <joe...@notmydomain.com> wrote:
> But that said, as the clubhead flexes forward it will turn closed. As it
> lags, it will remain open. Hence the high draw or pull a common
> indicator of being too soft and the low push an indicator of being too
> stiff -- again these are not absolutes.
I infer then that slices and hooks will likely be stronger with flexible shafts.
If the club has not yet closed all the way, the flexible shaft will make it
even more open. If the club has closed too far, the flexible shaft will be
more closed.
I'm thinking of solutions to this problem:
1. Swing so the optimal spot is always at the right point of your swing. Use
results to determine this point.
2. Swing so that the square part of the swing lasts longer.
larry
wrote:
I'm sorry but why do you guys persist in repeating all the bogus crap
that the shaft manufacturers put out? The only way a reasonable
person can believe ANY of that stuff is to absolutely ignore the
evidence of the Whippy and various "trick shot" artists hitting balls
straight and long with rope or whippy shafts--even chain. Those
"shafts" have no flex or kickpoint characterists yet the ball goes
straight and long if the club is swung properly. I cannot understand
how you can ignore that fact and still blindly talk about shaft flex
characteristics as though there is any possibility that that makes any
difference. It is the characteistics of the clubhead and then the
swing that determine the launch angle and launch velocity. Facts are
facts. Logic is logic. Superstition is not logical or factual.
One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and
over--while expecting a different result!!
Larry
JoePete
> I infer then that slices and hooks will likely be stronger with flexible shafts.
> If the club has not yet closed all the way, the flexible shaft will make it
> even more open. If the club has closed too far, the flexible shaft will be
> more closed.
Depending on what is causing the slice or the hook, but the general idea
is right. But its not a linear relationship, it's a curve. Too stiff
will be as bad as too soft.
> I'm thinking of solutions to this problem:
>
> 1. Swing so the optimal spot is always at the right point of your swing. Use
> results to determine this point.
> 2. Swing so that the square part of the swing lasts longer.
In regard to 1., someone hitting the ball at the optimal point for
impact will always have a good shot whether they are swinging a steel
rod or a rock on a rope. Instead of thinking the perfect point of
impact, think anywhere that is near perfect. With too much flex, this is
a narrow window. With too little flex, there may be no window.
In regard to point 2, you do see this especially with players with
aggressive swings. They make an effort to flatten their swing -- you see
more lateral motion in an attempt to get the club square sooner and stay
square longer. This may sound somewhat similar to Larry's comments about
a long, low follow through. While this might be the observed effect, I
like to think more in broad terms -- flattening the swing, a shift
toward the target, swinging around your left hip -- otherwise I think
you encounter a tendency to steer or block the ball with your wrists.
But whatever works. I think this is another example of trading off, in
this case a little distance for being more square.
--
JoePete
Alan Baker
larry <la...@delmardata.com> wrote:
As one can easily test and discover that the same clubhead will produce
different ball flights with different shafts, your entire thesis is
nonsense.
JoePete
hit a whippy just as well as any other club. The issue is one of
consistency. Take the tenth of a second surrounding impact. (impact is 0
time, +.05 is after impact, -.05 is prior).
With too whippy shaft in that tenth of second the clubhead will travel
and experience open, square, close over several feet. With too stiff of
a shaft the clubhead will travel less distance (i.e. slower clubhead
speed) and experience probably only open. With a good amount of flex the
clubhead might travel a couple of feet and experience open, close and
square but within a tighter range compared to the too whippy a shaft.
Hence, anyone striking the ball at 0 point, whether they are using the
Whippy, a broomstick or wet noodle will get a square and decent hit. The
question is what if you are a little late or a little early. With the
right flex, you increase your margin of error.
It's not the bogus crap from manufacturers (I grant you manufacturers do
spew plenty of crap), it's the nature of anything that oscillates.
Otherwise, then we should all be playing golf with fishing line rather
shafts.
--
JoePete
larry
wrote:
that is classic Circular logic-- while ignoring the irrefutable fact
of straight long shots hit with whippy and rope or chain shafts. I
simply say that since those are a fact, your thesis must be false.
Either that or anyone who believes they see balls go straight and
long when hit with golf clubs with shafts with NO flex characterics is
hallucinating, ha.
Ludicrous. Superstition and "old wive's tales" substituted for logic.
Larry
Howard Brazee
On 25-Feb-2005, larry <la...@delmardata.com> wrote:
> Either that or anyone who believes they see balls go straight and
> long when hit with golf clubs with shafts with NO flex characterics is
> hallucinating, ha.
Or not everybody gets the same results. I've read quite a few conflicting
descriptions on how things should work, or how they do work for some people.
I can't believe them all, so I have to filter them through what works for me.
Alan Baker
larry <la...@delmardata.com> wrote:
That fact doesn't actually have anything to do with my facts.
>
> Either that or anyone who believes they see balls go straight and
> long when hit with golf clubs with shafts with NO flex characterics is
> hallucinating, ha.
One can test a clubhead with different shafts and one will get different
ball flight characteristics. This is fact. That an extremely flexible
shaft -- even a rope -- can produce a reasonable ball flight doesn't
change this. Are you really claiming that a rope will produce the same
ball flight as the same clubhead attached to a stiff shaft?
Think about where the CoM of the clubhead is and the effect that *must*
have on loft...
>
> Ludicrous. Superstition and "old wive's tales" substituted for logic.
>
> Larry
--
GolfRat
larry wrote:
>
> Just as we learn from the Whippy training devices--and by watching
> good players swing a clubhead connected by a rope or chain and hit the
> ball almost as well as with a regular club-- the shaft flex
> characteristics have NOTHING to do with either distance or control.
> In a good golf swing the player PULLS the clubhead through the ball
> primarily with his leading hand. If he does not exert hand
> interference, turning or pushing the shaft with hand action, the ball
> will go in the direction of the clubhead through the impact area.
> Line up straight, the ball goes straight.
>
> Larry
I'm going to call you on this one Larry. The problem with your logic above is
that it assumes a perfect and PERFECTLY REPEATABLE swing. Last I checked, there
wasn't too many of those around. If you make the perfect swing the effect of a
soft shaft is minimal (but exists - for example the toe of the club will be
lower). But you have less tolerance for error with a soft shaft. You have said
so yourself (swing poorly with a whippy and it opens up the club face and you
slice). What that means in practice is that if you play a soft shaft, you will
be less accurate because it magnifies swing flaws. Again - just what you have
argued with the Whippy.
larry
wrote:
>I think as I have said several times, there is no doubt that someone can
>hit a whippy just as well as any other club. The issue is one of
>consistency. Take the tenth of a second surrounding impact. (impact is 0
>time, +.05 is after impact, -.05 is prior).
>
>With too whippy shaft in that tenth of second the clubhead will travel
>and experience open, square, close over several feet. With too stiff of
>a shaft the clubhead will travel less distance (i.e. slower clubhead
>speed) and experience probably only open. With a good amount of flex the
>clubhead might travel a couple of feet and experience open, close and
>square but within a tighter range compared to the too whippy a shaft.
>
>Hence, anyone striking the ball at 0 point, whether they are using the
>Whippy, a broomstick or wet noodle will get a square and decent hit. The
>question is what if you are a little late or a little early. With the
>right flex, you increase your margin of error.
>
>It's not the bogus crap from manufacturers (I grant you manufacturers do
>spew plenty of crap), it's the nature of anything that oscillates.
>Otherwise, then we should all be playing golf with fishing line rather
>shafts.
I would lke, at this time, to hook you up with Dr. Melvin, scratch
handicap, who demonstrates on his sales video how to take a nice
relaxed swing and hit 10 balls 300 yards to a tight circle. Everyone
who has a Whippy club has seen that video. That would seem to prove
conclusively that accuracy has NOTHING to do with any sort of hand
manipulation to achieve a "square and decent" hit, or "a little late
or a little early" What your statement reveals is that you still
can't grasp that hand manipulation is simply not a factor in a good
golf SWING. When the clubhead is swinging centrifugally, it does not
require adjustments from the handle to do its job, align correctly and
fly toward the target correctly. The shaft flex characteristics are
irrelevant, simply make no difference in the accuracy of his drives.
larry
larry
s. Are you really claiming that a rope will produce the same
>ball flight as the same clubhead attached to a stiff shaft?
Yes, if the golfer does not use hand manipulation.
Just watch any of "The Hitman" demonstrations. He does it repeatedly
with rope shafts, super long floppy shafts, etc. He never misses, and
the ball goes straight and out the back end of a driving range. He
simply proves with every swing that essentially everything you hear
about the effect of shaft flex characterists is total BS.
The ONLY way shaft flex characteristics would matter is if the golfer
were applying leverage from the handle-- somehow using his golf club
like he would use a garden hoe--PUSHING with his lower hand in an
effort to get the clubhead to go faster or something.
Golfers worrying about that would be far ahead to learn a real
centrifugal golf swing than experiment with different "wrong" ways to
hit a golf ball.
Larry
Glfnaz
"larry" <la...@delmardata.com> wrote in message
news:qtgv11pu02m4g9qik...@4ax.com...
> The ONLY way shaft flex characteristics would matter is if the golfer
> were applying leverage from the handle-- somehow using his golf club
> like he would use a garden hoe--PUSHING with his lower hand in an
> effort to get the clubhead to go faster or something.
>
> Golfers worrying about that would be far ahead to learn a real
> centrifugal golf swing than experiment with different "wrong" ways to
> hit a golf ball.
>
> Larry
I push the club with the straightening of my right arm.
larry
wrote:
And I argue that in the long run it is FAR easier to propel a golf
ball consistently straight by learning a smooth centrifugal swing,
forward side leading, than by continuing to build upon fundamentally
flawed movement. Use the golf club like it was designed to be used.
Just "pay the price" to learn to pull the golf club through with the
handle leading-- with your non-dominant hand in control, and you are
on the way to consistency. EVERY good player does that. Even those
with unorthodox swings like Allen Doyle. It only takes a few weeks to
teach your non-dominant side to lead. It is worth it.
Larry
larry
wrote:
And you probably decelerate. You should push your left HAND with the
right hand or arm-- it should push OUT to the right-- but mostly the
left hand pulls toward the target -- the best way to avoid
deceleration.
What does your divot look like? It should starts at the ball and
deepen-- heading toward the target and not left--
Larry
Carbon
> On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 09:42:15 -0600, "Joe Mazur" <joe....@swri.org>
> wrote:
>
>>You get more mechanical advantage (e.g. distance) from a whippier shaft
>>not a stiffer shaft. Stiffer shaft would typically give you more
>>accuracy.
>
> You get more distance from a flexible shaft because the shaft is
> lighter, thus more weight can be concentrated in the clubhead. You get
> less distance with stiff shafts because the shaft is heavier. Notice
> that no pros use stiff steel shafts in their driver. Soon they won't in
> their irons either.
An X flex Grafalloy Blue weighs 63 grams. An L/A flex Aldila VX weighs 77
grams. Which one will hit the ball farther?
larry
wrote:
Lighter shafts = faster clubhead velocity for a given head weight.
Simple physic. Shaft weight in a golf club is like "unsprung" weight
in a racing car--wasted and very harmful to performance.
Larry
Glfnaz
The club won't decelerate until it passes the hands.
I have a flat left wrist.
How could the club decelerate?
larry
wrote:
Who knows how? Lets be pragmatic instead of analytical. Where is the
"swish" in your downswing? If it occurs before impact, you
decelerated. Your highest velocity was wasted.
I have found that anticipating an impact position in front of the ball
position "fools" the mind into NOT slowing the club until after it has
swung through the ball. Look ahead, young man.
Larry
JoePete
> I would lke, at this time, to hook you up with Dr. Melvin, scratch
> handicap, who demonstrates on his sales video how to take a nice
> relaxed swing and hit 10 balls 300 yards to a tight circle. Everyone
> who has a Whippy club has seen that video. That would seem to prove
> conclusively that accuracy has NOTHING to do with any sort of hand
> manipulation to achieve a "square and decent" hit, or "a little late
> or a little early" What your statement reveals is that you still
> can't grasp that hand manipulation is simply not a factor in a good
> golf SWING. When the clubhead is swinging centrifugally, it does not
> require adjustments from the handle to do its job, align correctly and
> fly toward the target correctly. The shaft flex characteristics are
> irrelevant, simply make no difference in the accuracy of his drives.
I have hit a Whippy, granted it was about 20 years ago. It is an
interesting training aid and revealing in some regards. It does not
surprise me at all that someone can hit a dozen great shots with it.
To clarify, I never intended to represent some feeling that "hand
manipulation" had anything to do with a good square impact.
The crux of my argument is that the shaft flex characteristics (whether
extremely stiff or extremely whippy) can be expressed for a particular
swing in terms of a margin of error -- there is such a thing as being
too whippy and such a thing as being too stiff. As I understand your
position is that a shaft has very little to do with hitting the ball,
the clubhead releases simply due to the nature of it traveling in an arc
and will automatically square at impact. Your position seems founded
primarily upon observation. If that is the total of your argument, then
I will simply agree that we disagree.
Pardon me if I missed this, but you seem to not even put parameters on
this argument. Are you saying that you could put Whippy shafts in all
your clubs and experience no deterimental effects? And I also do not
understand how you can explain off-center hits if the clubhead is
supposed to automatically square on its own. Like I said, maybe we just
agree to disagree.
--
JoePete
GolfRat
>
> And I argue that in the long run it is FAR easier to propel a golf
> ball consistently straight by learning a smooth centrifugal swing,
> forward side leading, than by continuing to build upon fundamentally
> flawed movement. Use the golf club like it was designed to be used.
>
> Just "pay the price" to learn to pull the golf club through with the
> handle leading-- with your non-dominant hand in control, and you are
> on the way to consistency. EVERY good player does that. Even those
> with unorthodox swings like Allen Doyle. It only takes a few weeks to
> teach your non-dominant side to lead. It is worth it.
>
> Larry
Which conveniently avoids the point being made. Do you take the whippy out
on the course with you? Does VJ take the whippy out on the course? I know VJ
doesn't and it is a pretty good bet he has a better swing than you (or I)
do.
Soft/hard/rope may not matter when you hit it right. But we don't always hit
it right.
Arguing about whether the left hand should lead or not is not germane to
this discussion. What matters is that you don't have to mishit a whippy very
much for the ball flight to be horrible. That works great as a training aid.
But it isn't something you want in your bag of clubs when the money is on
the line.
JoePete
> The ONLY way shaft flex characteristics would matter is if the golfer
> were applying leverage from the handle-- somehow using his golf club
> like he would use a garden hoe--PUSHING with his lower hand in an
> effort to get the clubhead to go faster or something.
Maybe here is an analogy to ponder. You can get the tip of a 10-foot
whip travelling in excess of 600 mph from just a 20 mph hand motion. By
the time that tip cracks. There is no leverage being applied by the
hands. However, carry out the same motion on a 10 feet piece of wood of
equal weight.
The characteristics of the materials makes an enormous difference.
--
JoePete
larry
wrote:
The clubhead is "thrown" through the ball by the downswing, whether
whippy or regular club. If the downswing is on plane and truly aimed
at the ball, the impact of the clubhead on the ball will be flush--
and since the clubhead is weighted to align itself correctly if its
velocity is highest at the bottom of the swing arc, i.e. impact, it
will be aligned correctly and the ball will fly straight. I am here
to testify that this works. Every whippy user knows it works. The
more you keep the wihippy or the regular club accelerating after
impact, the better it works.
Larry
larry
wrote:
>
>"larry" <la...@delmardata.com> wrote in message
>news:hahv11d102ki75sbr...@4ax.com...
>>
>> And I argue that in the long run it is FAR easier to propel a golf
>> ball consistently straight by learning a smooth centrifugal swing,
>> forward side leading, than by continuing to build upon fundamentally
>> flawed movement. Use the golf club like it was designed to be used.
>>
>> Just "pay the price" to learn to pull the golf club through with the
>> handle leading-- with your non-dominant hand in control, and you are
>> on the way to consistency. EVERY good player does that. Even those
>> with unorthodox swings like Allen Doyle. It only takes a few weeks to
>> teach your non-dominant side to lead. It is worth it.
>>
>> Larry
>
>Which conveniently avoids the point being made. Do you take the whippy out
>on the course with you? Does VJ take the whippy out on the course? I know VJ
>doesn't and it is a pretty good bet he has a better swing than you (or I)
>do.
Why in the world would a professional playing for money do that? I
would take a whippy 5i and driver out when playing for fun-- and I do
regularly. The ball goes the same distance and direction. It helps
me stay "smooth."
>
>Soft/hard/rope may not matter when you hit it right. But we don't always hit
>it right.
>
>Arguing about whether the left hand should lead or not is not germane to
>this discussion. What matters is that you don't have to mishit a whippy very
>much for the ball flight to be horrible. That works great as a training aid.
>But it isn't something you want in your bag of clubs when the money is on
>the line.
And your point is?? How can struggling golfers improve with that
information?? It is a training club.
larry
wrote:
A bullwhip has a handle with a foot of so of stiffness--which allows
us to accelerate the whip. (I was very good with one when I was a
teenager). You could not really pop the whip without that stiff
handle. The leverage we use with that handle to pop a whip is NOT
what good players do to swing a golf club. We PULL the club handle
with our leading side arm and hand--and do not push with the trailing
hand and arm to achieve leverage.
Long Drive artists have learned that letting the club "flail" by
pulling with the leading hand little fingers produces MUCH higher
clubhead velocity at impact than leverage pushing from their trailing
hand. Dr. Melvin (whippy inventor and long drive competitor) says
the dominant hand pushing actually slows the clubhead impact velocity.
larry
Alan Baker
larry <la...@delmardata.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 22:23:04 GMT, Alan Baker <alang...@telus.net>
>
> s. Are you really claiming that a rope will produce the same
> >ball flight as the same clubhead attached to a stiff shaft?
>
> Yes, if the golfer does not use hand manipulation.
You are obviously in error. As you say you are an engineer, I'm dismayed
that you cannot see it.
When you swing an object -- a clubhead, say -- on the end of a pendulum
-- be it made of graphite, or rope -- the forces involved cause the
centre of mass of that object to try and move into a position as far
away from the centre of rotation as possible (hence, "centrifugal" or
"centre fleeing"). In fact, it is trivial to demonstrate that the
relationship in position between the object and the axis of rotation
towards which the object tries to move is the same as that between the
same object were it suspended by a string due to gravity, agreed?
Now, I happen to have a couple of old clubheads laying around and when I
hang one from a string, what do I find? In relation to the string and
the clubface, where the clubhead is supported to put the hosel hole and
the string in a colinear position, the clubhead rotates toe down and the
face rotates to add loft. Why? Because when held aligned as a club would
be aligned, the centre of mass isn't below the point of support. It is
both behind (with respect to the notional target line), and out towards
the toe.
Now, swing a club at the end of a string and it is going to move into a
position where the centre of mass is located *exactly* on an extension
of the axis of the string. It has to. A rope has some resistance to
bending and so when firmly attached to the head, the head will encounter
a resisting torque caused by that resistance to bending and hence not
move quite as far.
But a regular golf shaft is far stiffer, and so the head will rotate far
less, and it will rotate different amounts depending on how stiff the
particular shaft is and how that stiffness is distributed.
>
> Just watch any of "The Hitman" demonstrations. He does it repeatedly
> with rope shafts, super long floppy shafts, etc. He never misses, and
> the ball goes straight and out the back end of a driving range. He
> simply proves with every swing that essentially everything you hear
> about the effect of shaft flex characterists is total BS.
>
> The ONLY way shaft flex characteristics would matter is if the golfer
> were applying leverage from the handle-- somehow using his golf club
> like he would use a garden hoe--PUSHING with his lower hand in an
> effort to get the clubhead to go faster or something.
>
> Golfers worrying about that would be far ahead to learn a real
> centrifugal golf swing than experiment with different "wrong" ways to
> hit a golf ball.
And yet, none of the pros are out there with a Whippy? Why not?
Alan Baker
larry <la...@delmardata.com> wrote:
Have you ever actually *seen* a long drive competition?
A. They all bend the shaft.
B. They all use extremely stiff shafts.
Why haven't they all switched over to the Whippy?
Alan Baker
larry <la...@delmardata.com> wrote:
Does he use his Whippy on the course?
Oh, you *do* realize that when you do a video you can just do another
take if you don't get it right, don't you?
Alan Baker
larry <la...@delmardata.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 20:58:10 -0500, "GolfRat" <Gol...@nowhere.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"larry" <la...@delmardata.com> wrote in message
> >news:hahv11d102ki75sbr...@4ax.com...
> >>
> >> And I argue that in the long run it is FAR easier to propel a golf
> >> ball consistently straight by learning a smooth centrifugal swing,
> >> forward side leading, than by continuing to build upon fundamentally
> >> flawed movement. Use the golf club like it was designed to be used.
> >>
> >> Just "pay the price" to learn to pull the golf club through with the
> >> handle leading-- with your non-dominant hand in control, and you are
> >> on the way to consistency. EVERY good player does that. Even those
> >> with unorthodox swings like Allen Doyle. It only takes a few weeks to
> >> teach your non-dominant side to lead. It is worth it.
> >>
> >> Larry
> >
> >Which conveniently avoids the point being made. Do you take the whippy out
> >on the course with you? Does VJ take the whippy out on the course? I know VJ
> >doesn't and it is a pretty good bet he has a better swing than you (or I)
> >do.
>
> Why in the world would a professional playing for money do that? I
> would take a whippy 5i and driver out when playing for fun-- and I do
> regularly. The ball goes the same distance and direction. It helps
> me stay "smooth."
But not when you actually want to score well. Right.
> >
> >Soft/hard/rope may not matter when you hit it right. But we don't always hit
> >it right.
> >
> >Arguing about whether the left hand should lead or not is not germane to
> >this discussion. What matters is that you don't have to mishit a whippy very
> >much for the ball flight to be horrible. That works great as a training aid.
> >But it isn't something you want in your bag of clubs when the money is on
> >the line.
>
> And your point is?? How can struggling golfers improve with that
> information?? It is a training club.
That apparently stiffness matters in the real world of golf, of course!
Carbon
Sooo... the X flex Blue would be longer?
larry
wrote:
>In article <somv11167lbrspetc...@4ax.com>,
If I don't respond to Alan's posts I assume everyone understands the
reason. I would just like for him to run down the street screaming at
someone else! Please, someone insult him!! Please! get him off my
back!!
larry
Alan Baker
larry <la...@delmardata.com> wrote:
What's wrong, Larry? I've made completely civil posts countering what
you have to say with facts. Is this such a problem for you?
Colleyville Alan
news:alangbaker-E467C...@news.telus.net...
>> >
>> >That apparently stiffness matters in the real world of golf, of course!
>>
>> If I don't respond to Alan's posts I assume everyone understands the
>> reason. I would just like for him to run down the street screaming at
>> someone else! Please, someone insult him!! Please! get him off my
>> back!!
>>
>> larry
>
> What's wrong, Larry? I've made completely civil posts countering what
> you have to say with facts. Is this such a problem for you?
He's not responding to you and neither am I. The joke's on you because this
post is written in invisible pixels!
Glfnaz
You didn;t answer my question.
Alan Baker
"Colleyville Alan" <aechar...@nospam.comcast.net> wrote:
Who said that?
<G>
And isn't it amazing how he responded right up until the facts were
spelled out in such excruciating clarity that even he would have had to
admit he was wrong...
Colleyville Alan
> In article <ddqdnVKJbOt...@comcast.com>,
> "Colleyville Alan" <aechar...@nospam.comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> "Alan Baker" <alang...@telus.net> wrote in message
>> news:alangbaker-E467C...@news.telus.net...
>> >> >
>> >> >That apparently stiffness matters in the real world of golf, of
>> >> >course!
>> >>
>> >> If I don't respond to Alan's posts I assume everyone understands the
>> >> reason. I would just like for him to run down the street screaming at
>> >> someone else! Please, someone insult him!! Please! get him off my
>> >> back!!
>> >>
>> >> larry
>> >
>> > What's wrong, Larry? I've made completely civil posts countering what
>> > you have to say with facts. Is this such a problem for you?
>>
>>
>> He's not responding to you and neither am I. The joke's on you because
>> this
>> post is written in invisible pixels!
>
> Who said that?
>
> <G>
>
> And isn't it amazing how he responded right up until the facts were
> spelled out in such excruciating clarity that even he would have had to
> admit he was wrong...
>
It's a good thing he is not an ideologue.
nsc...@att.net
up distance, both with the regular shaft and with the loft.
the thing is, tho, probably not much. I think it depends more on how
does it feel? I tend to like a stiff shaft in my driver, and when I hit
a regular, I feel that the shaft is "giving" on impact, sort of like I
expect it to break! Personally, I do not like that feeling, but I would
guess it doesn't make too much difference on distance, but maybe a few
yards. I guess i would recommend a stiff shaft for you, and maybe less
loft, but depends on the conditions. If you tend to play soft courses
where the roll is really small, maybe the loft is ok.
striker
rectil...@yahoo.com wrote:
> Ok. I am using a Cleveland 460 9.5 regular driver. I hit it well, but
a
> little too high and with too much spin. Swing speed is 106. Am I
giving
> up significant yardage by not using a stiff shaft? I would like to
try
> a stiff but I can't find anywhere that will let you take one out even
> to a range to try it.
Alan Baker
"Colleyville Alan" <aechar...@nospam.comcast.net> wrote:
Yeah...
LOL
Rob Davis
> Just watch any of "The Hitman" demonstrations. He does it repeatedly
> with rope shafts, super long floppy shafts, etc. He never misses, and
> the ball goes straight and out the back end of a driving range. He
> simply proves with every swing that essentially everything you hear
> about the effect of shaft flex characterists is total BS.
>
> were applying leverage from the handle-- somehow using his golf club
> like he would use a garden hoe--PUSHING with his lower hand in an
> effort to get the clubhead to go faster or something.
>
> Golfers worrying about that would be far ahead to learn a real
> centrifugal golf swing than experiment with different "wrong" ways to
> hit a golf ball.
>
> Larry
So your evidence is one trick shot artist who has spent hours perfecting
the ability to hit golf balls with a super flexible shaft. And you chose
to ignore the fact that the vast majority of pros use special stiff flex
shafts and that most basic golf instruction books make a point of
suggesting that amateur golfers use the proper shaft flex (i.e regular).
Hmmm .... I'm convinced.
Rob
David Sneddon
> On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 02:49:39 GMT, Alan Baker <alang...@telus.net> wrote:
>
>
>>And yet, none of the pros are out there with a Whippy? Why not?
>
>
> You might as well try to reason with a rock, Alan.
>
> MacHamish Mór
I think lllarry is Alan's 'science project' - something to do on those
wet days in Vancouver when he can't get to the golf course.
:-)
David
David Geesaman
> I would say, that if your swing speed is that high, that you are giving
> up distance, both with the regular shaft and with the loft.
> the thing is, tho, probably not much. I think it depends more on how
> does it feel? I tend to like a stiff shaft in my driver, and when I hit
> a regular, I feel that the shaft is "giving" on impact, sort of like I
> expect it to break! Personally, I do not like that feeling, but I would
> guess it doesn't make too much difference on distance, but maybe a few
> yards. I guess i would recommend a stiff shaft for you, and maybe less
> loft, but depends on the conditions. If you tend to play soft courses
> where the roll is really small, maybe the loft is ok.
> striker
I feel the need to point out that the above paragraph is largely bullshit.
Shafts do not 'give'.
9.5° drivers are used by many hard-hitting players on tour without issue.
Dave
larry
wrote:
I don't know the answer--but I doubt the premise of your question is
correct-- i.e. that the club won't decelerate....
Just make a divot in front of the ball as long as you can-- and you
won't decelerate. We can think of only one "swing thought" at a time
and that is a good one.
larry
larry
wrote:
Not much proof of anything to cite what pros do. I know several young
pros. They can all hit whippy clubs out of sight, yet remain AFRAID
to switch to graphite shafts. Some play stiff ONLY because they know
others who play stiff, it is a macho thing. They don't want to be
first to switch to graphites among their peers. This group is
superstitious beyond all reason. They will be the very last to
experiment or change permanently--even in the face of overwhelming
evidence that it would improve their game. But a few are brave and
smart, Corey Pavin, and Jack Nicklaus switched to "soft" flex clubs
years ago.
larry
larry
wrote:
I feel like I have accidently enraged a sodden wino sitting in a
doorway. I said something innocuous like "get a job" as I walked by
and to my horror Alan got up and has chased me for blocks--screaming
obscenities and throwing feces. I just hope someone else will get
his attention--and he will run off chasing them instead! Nutcases do
have a short attention span.
Larry
JJK
<snip>
> velocity is highest at the bottom of the swing arc, i.e. impact, it
> will be aligned correctly and the ball will fly straight. I am here
> to testify that this works. Every whippy user knows it works. The
I propose the following experiment. Replace all the clubs in your bag
w/whippy (or rope)shafted clubs. If your HC index becomes zero in one year,
get back to us.
JJK
> Ok. I am using a Cleveland 460 9.5 regular driver. I hit it well, but a
> little too high and with too much spin. Swing speed is 106. Am I giving
> up significant yardage by not using a stiff shaft? I would like to try
> a stiff but I can't find anywhere that will let you take one out even
> to a range to try it.
My 44" driver swingspeed is only 108 mph. I've tried mid- and regular-flex
shafted woods and drivers and always felt the need to time the swing in
order to make effective use of them (i.e. much slower tempo). I prefer
stiffer shafted clubs (e.g., standard stiff Fujikura speeder in a Titleist
983K driver, standard stiff DG S300 shafts in Titleist 980F fairway woods
and Royal Precision 6.5 shafts in KZG ZO irons). When my swing is on, all
the clubs feel and perform pretty well (for my level of chopping). When it
is not, no club can save me.
There's a driving range in the greater Washington DC area (White Flint
Driving Range in Rockville, MD) that demos and sells OEM clubs. They let me
hit buckets of balls over several days to test a wide variety of drivers
(different shafts, heads, manufacturers). I didn't abuse their generosity.
After a lot of testing, I ordered my 983K driver from them (I paid roughly
$30 more than the then lowest internet/catalog price, but the service was
well worth the extra money). Ditto for some of my 980F fairway woods (in
that case, the clubs were only about $5 or $10 over i-net prices).
Larry would resist the thought, but I will be experimenting with a
relatively short DG S300 shafted driver this year (Titleist 976r: a
wee-sized clubhead). At the moment, I find that the smaller headed clubs
focus my attention better than do SUVs on a stick. I'm hoping that if I
learn to nut the smaller head clubs, the larger driver will more often be
struck on its sweet spot.
Glfnaz
As Yoda says--
You can Push the Club through Impact or you can Pull it. You cannot do
both.
At least not at the same time.
Alan Baker
larry <la...@delmardata.com> wrote:
This would be you being civil and reasonable, would it?
Alan Baker
larry <la...@delmardata.com> wrote:
Why don't *you* use your Whippy on the course?
And when did Jack Nicklaus switch? What's your source for this?
larry
They don't make all the clubs.
THe whippys are training clubs-- everyone who used them alternates
between the whippy and their "real" equivalent, the idea being to
bring their smooth whippy swing to their normal clubs.
You sure sound resentful, jealous, or something. If you can't hit
balls straight with a whippy, why denigrate those who can? Just get
one and learn to do what EVERY good golfer can easily do. It can only
help your game.
Larry
Glfnaz
>
> Why don't *you* use your Whippy on the course?
>
> And when did Jack Nicklaus switch? What's your source for this?
>
> --
> Alan Baker
This is another lie from Larry
Jack said that for 2 events--due to weather conditions or uniquness of the
course, he switched from Stiff to Reg shafts. Only those two events. He
still plays stiff shafts today.
larry
I use an R7 when I play the course. But amazingly, I can hit my new
Whippy 230cc driver the same distance and the same launch angle. Good
training, using the whippy and exaggerating the impact position I have
learned to keep drives low-- by extending the driver head after impact
as low as possible, almost hitting DOWN on the ball, which is
impossible, of course. I would NOT be afraid to play the course with
the Whippy driver. I would hesitate to use the whippy 5i from some
grassy lies, the one thing it cannot do as well is dig through heavy
grass.
Larry
Colleyville Alan
> Nutcases do have a short attention span.
Oh yeah? Well let me tell you something pal, I never.... uh, what was it we
were talking about?
Colleyville Alan
I think I could get Mike Dalecki to make some clubs for you with rope as the
shaft. A good-quality braided nylon should do the trick. It would even be
whippier than a whippy! I'll play you for money and I will give you 3
strokes per side as long as I get to use my regular clubs and you use
clubheads attached to rope. How 'bout it? I've yet to break 100 and you
are shooting in the low 80's. BTW, you get to use a standard putter, it is
only for driving and approach shots that you use the rope-shafted clubs.
That's a fair offer Larry. We can play 18 and discuss nuclear engineering,
it'll be fun.
Alan Murphy
news:8MednRB7iLS...@rcn.net...
interrest in them. Oh, and BTW, he's just added an
impact bag to his catalogue, so expect more on that.
Alan
Ulrich Mayring
>
> I would lke, at this time, to hook you up with Dr. Melvin, scratch
> handicap, who demonstrates on his sales video how to take a nice
> relaxed swing and hit 10 balls 300 yards to a tight circle.
Surely you are not going to tell us that we should take a staged sales
video seriously?
I can make a video, where I hit ten balls to the 400 yard post, it's
just a question of editing.
Ulrich
Dave Clary
>larry wrote:
>>
>> I would lke, at this time, to hook you up with Dr. Melvin, scratch
>> handicap, who demonstrates on his sales video how to take a nice
>> relaxed swing and hit 10 balls 300 yards to a tight circle.
>
>Surely you are not going to tell us that we should take a staged sales
>video seriously?
Trust me--the video shows no such thing. I have it.
Dave Clary/Corpus Christi, Tx
Home: http://davidclary.com
Golf Diary: http://davidclary.com/2005diary.htm
(Last Update: Feb 20 2005)
Alan Baker
Dave Clary <dcl...@stx.rr.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 21:49:12 +0100, Ulrich Mayring <g...@mayring.de> wrote:
>
> >larry wrote:
> >>
> >> I would lke, at this time, to hook you up with Dr. Melvin, scratch
> >> handicap, who demonstrates on his sales video how to take a nice
> >> relaxed swing and hit 10 balls 300 yards to a tight circle.
> >
> >Surely you are not going to tell us that we should take a staged sales
> >video seriously?
>
> Trust me--the video shows no such thing. I have it.
I also find it amusing that the one golfer who may actually have been
able to accomplish such a feat -- Moe Norman, swings in a way that is
completely unlike what Larry suggests is correct.
Carbon
> On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 17:08:05 -0800, larry wrote:
>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 01:01:12 GMT, Carbon <nob...@nospam.verizon.net>
>> wrote:
>>>On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:57:39 -0800, larry wrote:
>
>>>> You get more distance from a flexible shaft because the shaft is
>>>> lighter, thus more weight can be concentrated in the clubhead. You
>>>> get less distance with stiff shafts because the shaft is heavier.
>>>> Notice that no pros use stiff steel shafts in their driver. Soon
>>>> they won't in their irons either.
>>>
>>>An X flex Grafalloy Blue weighs 63 grams. An L/A flex Aldila VX weighs
>>>77 grams. Which one will hit the ball farther?
>>
>> Lighter shafts = faster clubhead velocity for a given head weight.
>> Simple physic. Shaft weight in a golf club is like "unsprung" weight
>> in a racing car--wasted and very harmful to performance.
>
> Sooo... the X flex Blue would be longer?
Ah, the sound of silence. C'mon Larry, you can say it!
larry
wrote:
That is outrageous Dave. If you have his video, play it to the end.
During the last 5 minutes or so he hits his driver to that distant
target area. He tells where those are landing, and gives he
distance. Please check again and tell everyone the truth.
Larry
larry
wrote:
>On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 02:54:57 +0000, Carbon wrote:
>> On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 17:08:05 -0800, larry wrote:
>>> On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 01:01:12 GMT, Carbon <nob...@nospam.verizon.net>
>>> wrote:
>>>>On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 10:57:39 -0800, larry wrote:
>>
>>>>> You get more distance from a flexible shaft because the shaft is
>>>>> lighter, thus more weight can be concentrated in the clubhead. You
>>>>> get less distance with stiff shafts because the shaft is heavier.
>>>>> Notice that no pros use stiff steel shafts in their driver. Soon
>>>>> they won't in their irons either.
>>>>
>>>>An X flex Grafalloy Blue weighs 63 grams. An L/A flex Aldila VX weighs
>>>>77 grams. Which one will hit the ball farther?
>>>
>>> Lighter shafts = faster clubhead velocity for a given head weight.
>>> Simple physic. Shaft weight in a golf club is like "unsprung" weight
>>> in a racing car--wasted and very harmful to performance.
>>
>> Sooo... the X flex Blue would be longer?
>
>Ah, the sound of silence. C'mon Larry, you can say it!
I said "lighter shafts=faster clubhead velocity." Of course the club
with the lighter shaft would be "longer" if all other factors were
held equal.
larry
Alan Baker
larry <la...@delmardata.com> wrote:
Oh...
He *tells* us, does he? And people never, never lie about such things...
Dave Clary
>
>That is outrageous Dave. If you have his video, play it to the end.
>During the last 5 minutes or so he hits his driver to that distant
>target area. He tells where those are landing, and gives he
>distance. Please check again and tell everyone the truth.
It has been awhile since I've viewed it but I don't remember anything like you
describe. But I'll dig it out and watch it again and if I'm wrong, I'll
apologize.
I will attest that the man can flat out hit a golf ball. My encounters with him
were very postive--a couple of interesting phone conversations after he reviewed
a tape I sent him, and an unsolicited medical consultation (luckily he was wrong
but I had the tests done he suggested). I just think you're guilty of a little
hyperbole in this instance. I'll report back.
Alan Murphy
news:1rs121t1tqsanq2q9...@4ax.com...
> the
> Whippy. He's learning to accelerate through the ball with that. He
> probably doesn't realize it -- or wouldn't admit it -- but smacking that
> impact bag is training his trailing side to release against a firm
> leading
> side.
>
> MacHamish Mór
Henry Cotton used to advocate hitting against
a car tire. I've still got a couple of them hanging
around in the garden and garage.
Alan
JJK
> >I propose the following experiment. Replace all the clubs in your bag
> >w/whippy (or rope)shafted clubs. If your HC index becomes zero in one
year,
> >get back to us.
"larry" wrote:
> They don't make all the clubs.
>
> THe whippys are training clubs-- everyone who used them alternates
> between the whippy and their "real" equivalent, the idea being to
> bring their smooth whippy swing to their normal clubs.
>
> You sure sound resentful, jealous, or something. If you can't hit
> balls straight with a whippy, why denigrate those who can? Just get
> one and learn to do what EVERY good golfer can easily do. It can only
> help your game.
You don't need 14 clubs to score. My first year playing golf, I shot a 90
w/3 clubs (9W, 9i and putter), the same score I was shooting with 14. I
should try this particular experiment again because that process made me
think about scoring from the hole to the tee instead of v. versa.
I assure you that I am not jealous. I'm simply suggesting an experiment to
back up your claims. In addition, I am not denigrating you or anyone else
who can hit with a whippy or rope shaft. I have a 5-iron training club (the
Medicus 2000). Because of a sore tennis elbow injury (I fell about a year
ago) I haven't used it enough to know whether the device is truly useful. It
seems like it will be, but I can't say for sure.
I've tried regular-shafted clubs and I simply don't like the way they feel.
That doesn't mean they aren't better for me.
larry
wrote:
>On Sat, 26 Feb 2005 17:01:39 -0800, larry <la...@delmardata.com> wrote:
Please do. I have not exaggerated anything I said about the Whippy--
as great training clubs to develop a smooth swing-- and to teach our
non-dominant side to lead. Dr. Melvin considers that to be a critical
skill in achieving accuracy and distance--and consistent clean hits.
Larry
larry
<afm...@btinternet.com> wrote:
Actually the impact bag and the Whippy teach the identically
skills--which is that your non-dominant side must lead. That
principle is what creates the aggressive impact position, your left
hand little fingers PULLING the clubhead through with the handle kept
leading the clubhead. The whippy requires exactly the same thing, if
your dominant hand is applying leverage to the club shaft, it will
bend and you will either whiff the ball entirely or hit it hard right
- (if right handed). The only way to keep the shaft relatively
straight is to PULL the clubhead with your lead hand little
fingers--and in fact achieve that same aggressive impact position as
taught by Dr. Wiren. Left hand control in both cases. Golf is golf,
the required skills can be obtained several ways--but they are the
same skills. We still have to learn to swing the club with our left
hand and arm and propel our swing with our turning torso--
larry
nsc...@att.net
shafts. I can definitely feel a "give" when I compare the same head,
with 2 Penley shafts, one stiff, and the other regular. Now when I say
the same head, I am thinking, maybe one has a little more loft and a
slightly thinner face. They are both the Golfsmith ti 380 head. I will
check into this, but I know what I feel. And it is kind of a softness
at impact.
striker
David Geesaman wrote:
> nsc...@att.net wrote:
> > I would say, that if your swing speed is that high, that you are
giving
> > up distance, both with the regular shaft and with the loft.
> > the thing is, tho, probably not much. I think it depends more on
how
> > does it feel? I tend to like a stiff shaft in my driver, and when I
hit
> > a regular, I feel that the shaft is "giving" on impact, sort of
like I
> > expect it to break! Personally, I do not like that feeling, but I
would
> > guess it doesn't make too much difference on distance, but maybe a
few
> > yards. I guess i would recommend a stiff shaft for you, and maybe
less
> > loft, but depends on the conditions. If you tend to play soft
courses
> > where the roll is really small, maybe the loft is ok.
> > striker
>
> I feel the need to point out that the above paragraph is largely
bullshit.
>
> Shafts do not 'give'.
> 9.5° drivers are used by many hard-hitting players on tour without
issue.
>
> Dave
Dave Clary
>
>Actually the impact bag and the Whippy teach the identically
>skills--which is that your non-dominant side must lead.
Dead wrong on that one, Larry. The Impact Bag teaches that the hands lead the
clubhead into impact. It doesn't matter if it's the lead hand of a swinger, or
the driving rear hand of the hitter,
Carbon
What "other factors" do you have in mind, Larry? Shaft flex?
Is the X flex ultralite shaft longer than the standard weight L/A flex
shaft or not? A yes or no will suffice.
David Geesaman
> Dave, I have made some drivers with the same head, and different
> shafts. I can definitely feel a "give" when I compare the same head,
> with 2 Penley shafts, one stiff, and the other regular. Now when I say
> the same head, I am thinking, maybe one has a little more loft and a
> slightly thinner face. They are both the Golfsmith ti 380 head. I will
> check into this, but I know what I feel. And it is kind of a softness
> at impact.
> striker
>
You're probably missing the sweet spot a little bit and feeling the
difference in torque.
Dave
larry
wrote:
I don't know. I simply could not care less about shaft flex
characteristics, name brands, etc. are not even on my radar scope, I
don't know or care. After hitting the whippy, I have come to believe
that the only shaft characteristic that matters is its weight--less is
better--as long as it has enough stiffness to allow a decent backswing
and doesn't stretch during the downswing.
Larry
larry
wrote:
>On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:12:14 -0800, larry <la...@delmardata.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>Actually the impact bag and the Whippy teach the identically
>>skills--which is that your non-dominant side must lead.
>
>Dead wrong on that one, Larry. The Impact Bag teaches that the hands lead the
>clubhead into impact. It doesn't matter if it's the lead hand of a swinger, or
>the driving rear hand of the hitter,
I suppose that is true in an impact bag pose, but there is no way
anyone can successfully hit balls with a whippy with their dominant
hand in control. It will go wild. Dr. Wiren does say that the left
side leads, the left hand little fingers are pulling when he strikes
the pose-- after impact.
larry
larry
<rjim...@comcast.remove.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 21:20:53 GMT, Dave Clary <dcl...@stx.rr.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:12:14 -0800, larry <la...@delmardata.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Actually the impact bag and the Whippy teach the identically
>>>skills--which is that your non-dominant side must lead.
>>
>>Dead wrong on that one, Larry. The Impact Bag teaches that the hands lead the
>>clubhead into impact. It doesn't matter if it's the lead hand of a swinger, or
>>the driving rear hand of the hitter,
>
>IMO, the Impact Bag is about training the user to square up the clubface at
>impact. It also strengthens the hands. After a session with the impact
>bag, I've experienced a better ability to fire my right side through the
>shot. There's something about whacking an immovable object that makes you
>want to bust through the resistance. Remember the old thing about standing
>in a door frame and pressing the backs of your hands against it as hard as
>you can on both sides for a couple of minutes? When you step out of the
>door frame, you're arms rise away from your sides of their own volition. I
>think the effect of hitting the Impact Bag is somewhat similar.
>
>MacHamish Mór
With due respect, you missed the point. You really need to watch and
listen to the video that comes with Dr. Wiren's impact bag. When
using an impact bag properly you are supposed to have grasped that you
got to the impact position by PULLING the clubhead with your leading
side, arm, hand and in fact the last 3 fingers of that hand. Nothing
mentioned about the dominant hand-- one can only assume the best
course is to keep it under control as the lead side leads.
Larry
Dave Clary
>On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 21:20:53 GMT, Dave Clary <dcl...@stx.rr.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:12:14 -0800, larry <la...@delmardata.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Actually the impact bag and the Whippy teach the identically
>>>skills--which is that your non-dominant side must lead.
>>
>>Dead wrong on that one, Larry. The Impact Bag teaches that the hands lead the
>>clubhead into impact. It doesn't matter if it's the lead hand of a swinger, or
>>the driving rear hand of the hitter,
>
>I suppose that is true in an impact bag pose, but there is no way
>anyone can successfully hit balls with a whippy with their dominant
>hand in control. It will go wild.
No argument here. I'm not talking about the Whippy. I use an impact bag to
train for hitting a firm-flex True Temper TT Lite XL. The point is to not flip
your wrist or go into chicken-wing mode. And as far as your reply to Mac-Mor
goes, Wiren demonstrates one way to do it , but again, it ain't the only way.
Alan Baker
larry <la...@delmardata.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 21:20:53 GMT, Dave Clary <dcl...@stx.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 12:12:14 -0800, larry <la...@delmardata.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>Actually the impact bag and the Whippy teach the identically
> >>skills--which is that your non-dominant side must lead.
> >
> >Dead wrong on that one, Larry. The Impact Bag teaches that the hands lead
> >the
> >clubhead into impact. It doesn't matter if it's the lead hand of a swinger,
> >or
> >the driving rear hand of the hitter,
>
> I suppose that is true in an impact bag pose, but there is no way
> anyone can successfully hit balls with a whippy with their dominant
> hand in control. It will go wild. Dr. Wiren does say that the left
> side leads, the left hand little fingers are pulling when he strikes
> the pose-- after impact.
Ah, but the goal is to hit golf balls will with -- not training aids,
no, but...
...golf clubs!
Alan Baker
larry <la...@delmardata.com> wrote:
Why didn't you address your self to my post where I explained with
complete transparency that shaft flex/stiffness *does* matter?
Alan Baker
MacHamish <rjim...@comcast.remove.net> wrote:
> Larry, I learned how to use my lead side properly back in the 1950's. It's
> ingrained. You're just beginning the journey into the mysteries of the golf
> swing. While your credulous enthusiasm for the Whippy and the Impact Bag is
> touching in its childlike nescience, I suspect it's wearing a little thin on
> many of the posters here. Give it a rest. Find some new gurus and gizmos
> to talk about. You've long since made your point.
>
> MacHamish Mór
And if he'd stop talking about each and every one as if:
a) no one's ever discovered anything like this before,
and b) each one is the holy grail in the search for a perfect swing.
It's really very tiresome.
nsc...@att.net
think its due to the shaft. I do notice the torque when I miss the
sweet spot, but its more of a twisting.
striker